Curse

pumpkin pie · Jun 25, 2008, 02:44 PM // 14:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

I don't think you can really argue that PvP takes far more skill to be successful in compared to PvE.

The major difference is that PvE is a static environment. You can empirically memorize every spawn point and mechanically replay it - one reasons why bots can perform in PvE. PvP requires the player to continually adapt during a match itself in order to remain effective. For that reason, the skill cap in PvE is a lot lower - once you're got general positioning and character control down, you're pretty much set, because the only major tactic is go from A to B and kill everything on the way.

While discussing the differences between skill importance in PvE and PvP is fine, if this becomes the usual playerbase witch hunt it will be locked.

sorry, i better ask now before i step into muddy water :P

what is playerbase witch hunt?

Tyla · Jun 25, 2008, 02:45 PM // 14:45

^

I believe he means PvP versus PvE.

Avarre: Any kind of trolling towards 'PvE players' or 'PvP players', the use of such classifications as an ad hominem in discussion, or proliferation of beliefs that such playerbase boundaries exist and propel poster morivations.

Targren · Jun 25, 2008, 02:58 PM // 14:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetdoc

For example, I play 90% of PvE solo without heroes and henchmen, and I have to say that it involves a lot of planning, strategy and techniques...I feel I sharpen my "skill" every day.

"I'm interested in this" - Alucard.

Seriously, though. What class(es) (note that I do not ask for builds) do you play when you do this? How well do you generally succeed? Are you progressing storylines, or doing things like cart titles? I would think that a ranger might be able to pull it off, sick as their versatility is.

The reason I ask is because I'm looking for something to do with GW other than HFFFing for PLN and trying to max boring titles, and this sounds fun, but the dominating tactic for PvE "challenge" these days seems to be "Bigger numbers". Face 32 afflicted, 20 demons, 60 destroyers, etc... and survive their "I win" skills.

Sounds like a fun idea though.

StormDragonZ · Jun 25, 2008, 03:03 PM // 15:03

InGame Skill: Necromancers don't use bows.
OutGame Skill: Knowing you're better than others and still worse than some others.

InGame Skill: Barrage + Read the Wind don't mix.
OutGame Skill: You can't use Conjure Nightmare on those co-workers who need to shut up.

Targren · Jun 25, 2008, 03:14 PM // 15:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by StormDragonZ

InGame Skill: Necromancers don't use bows.
OutGame Skill: Knowing you're better than others and still worse than some others.

InGame Skill: Barrage + Read the Wind don't mix.
OutGame Skill: You can't use Conjure Nightmare on those co-workers who need to shut up.

So that explains why I can never get my boss' health bar to turn pink... damn.

Fril Estelin · Jun 25, 2008, 03:19 PM // 15:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

You forget the human element, something that PvE does not have on the other side.

Well, I think that's also a good thing for PvE. Humans can big selfish, nasty, unfriendly, judgemental, angry, unsympathetic, condescending, ignorant, aggressive, hypocrite, narrow-minded, intolerant, racist, elitist...

I think you too have a problem with understanding what I wrote (and maybe misjudge me on why I wrote it? please notice the question marks). But, human nature being what it is, I'm not going to try to explain it to you because you will not (voluntarily or not) understand.

I'll let you "win" this thread now (it's exactly like PvP, there can only be winners and loosers), no more disturbances from me.

Samurai Goroh · Jun 25, 2008, 03:23 PM // 15:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

I don't think you can really argue that PvP takes far more skill to be successful in compared to PvE.

The major difference is that PvE is a static environment. You can empirically memorize every spawn point and mechanically replay it - one reasons why bots can perform in PvE. PvP requires the player to continually adapt during a match itself in order to remain effective. For that reason, the skill cap in PvE is a lot lower - once you're got general positioning and character control down, you're pretty much set, because the only major tactic is go from A to B and kill everything on the way.

While discussing the differences between skill importance in PvE and PvP is fine, if this becomes the usual playerbase witch hunt it will be locked.

Theres lot of variables in PVE that make it just as skillfull as PVP. I hardly think most pvp players could solo fight to droknars without max armor or elite skills.

So it does take skill, a differnt type of skill that PVP players arent interested in aparanetly but cant be dismissed none the less. If anything the PVP part of this game could easily be dismissed just be the sheer numbers of people playing PVE game if you wanna play that way majority rules then PVP doesnt count in Guild Wars and is just a side attraction to the main game PVE.

Just because its called PVE doesnt mean there isnt PVP or peopel competing in it, everyones competeing on some level be it getting titles or nice armours or getting the most gold and letting it be known, thats a competition and it takes skill. PVP doesnt always mean killing someone, PVP is anything thats a form of competition and the PVE game is full of it.

Infact I think all skills should be balanced for PVE, since the meat of the content and the majority of the playerbase (a large majority) is pvp'ing in the PVE game it would makes sense that extra attention and care be put into balancing the PVE with mob AI, skills, etc.

Dont get me wrong im a hard core pvp'er, FPS's are my favourite genre, but in this game teamdeathmatch is just a mini game for me and the real competition is inside the towns where I tink Anet needs to start focusing their attention on. - the PVP game in the PVE world, which no isnt deathmatch. Theres better PVP games out there, there isnt any better PVE games , the focus needs to be on their strength.

But admittedly Ursan did take out any skill left in the PVE game which leads me to conlcude Anet doesnt get it, they dont understand the PVP part in the PVE game because if they did they wouldnt allow cheat codes into PVP games, which is what PVE in this game really is - PVP on another level.

Darkobra · Jun 25, 2008, 03:34 PM // 15:34

Predicting enemy movements in PVP, who's going to attack first, who's going to rush in, who their first target is going to be, is a great skill that many seem to lack.

With the formation of a team, you can normally tell who's going to attack and when. It was easy monking for me, but convincing a team of idiots to do their job and actually attack rather than run around in circles with protection spells on them is the hardest task of all.

In fact, it's as bad as getting a decent team to take down a single sentry in TF2 on a pyro achievement update.

Bryant Again · Jun 25, 2008, 04:17 PM // 16:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkobra

In fact, it's as bad as getting a decent team to take down a single sentry in TF2 on a pyro achievement update.

Lmao, I hear that

But to be OT, since I don't want to piss off Avarre more than he already is:

The "skill requirement" in GW has always been a bit low. Through out the expansions it's started to get a bit muddy. But challenge still remained: there were instances where a lot of people had trouble, when the difficulty curve started to rise, and these were generally some of the best parts of the game. While GW wasn't difficult to "master" in the first place, it's become even less difficult to master now.

Shadey · Jun 25, 2008, 05:17 PM // 17:17

lol of course there no RL skills in PvE when 90% of them use ursan :/

DarkNecrid · Jun 25, 2008, 05:25 PM // 17:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

Well, I think that's also a good thing for PvE. Humans can big selfish, nasty, unfriendly, judgemental, angry, unsympathetic, condescending, ignorant, aggressive, hypocrite, narrow-minded, intolerant, racist, elitist...

True, but that doesn't really change the environment unless if they are just bad and aggro the whole map.

Assuming you are playing with actual good players (because it's just fair, my PvP example only really counts if you're playing with good players who aren't trying to sabotage you), the human element doesn't matter much at all in PvE.

Quote:

I think you too have a problem with understanding what I wrote (and maybe misjudge me on why I wrote it? please notice the question marks). But, human nature being what it is, I'm not going to try to explain it to you because you will not (voluntarily or not) understand.

Try me.

Quote:

I'll let you "win" this thread now (it's exactly like PvP, there can only be winners and losers), no more disturbances from me.

Tch, it's not about winning or losing, it's about what you learned along the way.

Quote:

]Theres lot of variables in PVE that make it just as skillfull as PVP. I hardly think most pvp players could solo fight to droknars without max armor or elite skills.

So, it's more skillfull because you're not doing something to the best of your ability?

This is why PvPers wouldn't do this.

Lemme change your statement to fit PvP

I hardly think most PvE players could solo fight in GvG without max armor or elite skills.

It's not more skillfull, it's just more challenging because you're gimping yourself. It's hard to make a similar parallel however, because you can easily solo run droknars without max armor or elite skills thanks to terrible AI and knowing the area, yet you wouldn't be able to beat even the worst guild 1v8 in GvG without max armor or elite skills.

Quote:

If anything the PVP part of this game could easily be dismissed just be the sheer numbers of people playing PVE game if you wanna play that way majority rules then PVP doesnt count in Guild Wars and is just a side attraction to the main game PVE.

Devs say you are wrong: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmnEWvo1Ugw

Section #2.

Quote:

Just because its called PVE doesnt mean there isnt PVP or peopel competing in it, everyones competeing on some level be it getting titles or nice armours or getting the most gold and letting it be known, thats a competition and it takes skill. PVP doesnt always mean killing someone, PVP is anything thats a form of competition and the PVE game is full of it.

It's a different kind of competition. It doesn't take skill to get the most titles, or the most armors, or the most gold. It takes time. Divine got r6 koabd, and I doubt he would say he used a ton of skill to get it. Just knowledge (which anyone can get from reading a wiki) and time (which he seems to have a lot of). Does some skill go along with it? Sure, I've mastered the art of rolling my face over my keyboard as a paragon. But it's not even close to the same kind of skill, and I just PvE to relax since I don't even have to try to beat it. I only take 1 weapon set, 3 heroes (when I'm not playing with others, and I never have to flag or change anything on them), never chiizu dance, etc. It's just a relaxation for me, because it's not difficult in the least. You could argue that's because I PvP, but I could argue that's because the entire game mode is faulty and not well designed. I have gotten more of a work out from really bad guilds.

Quote:

Infact I think all skills should be balanced for PVE, since the meat of the content and the majority of the playerbase (a large majority) is pvp'ing in the PVE game it would makes sense that extra attention and care be put into balancing the PVE with mob AI, skills, etc.

Let me know when they offer real money prizes for PvE that will affect monsters leaving (hint: monsters are replaced by players in PvP) when the game is imba and I'll agree with you!!

Quote:

Dont get me wrong im a hard core pvp'er, FPS's are my favourite genre, but in this game teamdeathmatch is just a mini game for me and the real competition is inside the towns where I tink Anet needs to start focusing their attention on. - the PVP game in the PVE world, which no isnt deathmatch. Theres better PVP games out there, there isnt any better PVE games , the focus needs to be on their strength.

LOL.

Guild Wars is the best PvP game in its genre. World of Warcraft is completely laughable in the PvP area compared to GW, Fury is dead, EQ2 just got PvP tacked on and its pretty lol, and AoC has Rangers that can mass snare people and do Assassin dps. GW isn't CC based (ie: WoW, where your goal is to take the most people out of the game for the longest) and relies on movement, and isn't class based R-P-S (hello WoW again, where as I rogue I only die to a Hunter when they have Bestial Wrath on them. A short long recharge buff. Yeah.)

The PvE is really really bad though. A lot of other games in the genre do way better.

Basically, your entire post relies on the faulty logic that the majority rules and knows whats good and should get all the attention. If this is the case, then go play World of Warcraft. It has 10,000,000+ players, thats a majority compared to Guild Wars. It must be good.

No. PvP games in general get less players than PvE games because PvP is a whole different ballgame. There is a lot more people playing Bejeweled than there is Counterstrike 1.6 or whatever hell FPS you play. There always will be, because PvP is always more competitive and always more hardcore than a lot of people care for.

But that is no reason to alienate PvP games from the world.

Ctb · Jun 25, 2008, 05:36 PM // 17:36

I guess I'll repost since it got deleted the first time, but since I'm lazy, I'll compress it:

Hardly anybody cares about the few actual "skills" required to click a mouse and keyboard in the appropriate order at the appropriate times, so most people won't recognize the existence of those skills.

Humans just don't care about your ability to play with your keyboard or manipulate a few simple computer rules and they'll never venerate you for it the way they'll venerate some guy who can hit a ball over the left field fence. Humans value displays of strength and cleverness, and neither of those things appears on any meaningful scale when playing a video game.

Aldric · Jun 25, 2008, 06:29 PM // 18:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadey

lol of course there no RL skills in PvE when 90% of them use ursan :/

You know it's hard for a PvE'r like myself to agree with PvPers when so many of them talk utter pish like this.

To be a good PvPer will require alot more "skill" than to be a good PvE'er.

PvE is against a static enemy and preparation will eliminate 75% of the threat you will face. Being good at PvE does take a measure of skill but even the truly bad will eventually succeed at it just by persistance.

PvP on the otherhand cannot rely on preparation as much since you will be facing a human opponent who can react and adjust tactics at a moments notice and can use any skill combination possible. It is a completely fluid situation and reacting to this is much more difficult and requires a great deal more skill.

Sniper22 · Jun 25, 2008, 06:38 PM // 18:38

All the skill is in PvP. The reason why there is no skill required in PvE is because you all keep whining about your PvE separate skills and defending ursan. There isn't required skill in PvE because the only thing that matters is an over powered skill bar.

romeus petrus · Jun 25, 2008, 07:44 PM // 19:44

I would say both PvE and PvP take some skill, one more than the other depending on the skill type. Some of the skills you might want to look into are team coordination, the ability to respond appropriately and in a timely manner, agilty, logical thinking, anticipating correctly the enemies next move, and for all you title grinders out there: PATIENCE.

[DE] · Jun 25, 2008, 07:51 PM // 19:51

PvE is EXTREMELY static. If you've ever played a character with any interrupts on your bar you'd know this. When and what monsters cast is extremely predictable. For example, in EOTN the Charr warriors and rangers all cast their Conjures as soon as they enter your aggro bubble. With this knowledge you can interrupt at least 2 of them and then shatter/strip the third. The AI is extremely predictable, and thus the amount of player skill required to beat these AI is less than the amount of player skill required in PvP.

Darksun · Jun 25, 2008, 08:02 PM // 20:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mirage Isnt Emo

Nope, sorry. The game is just easy. There is no other option in this.

I don't know how much I can buy into comments like these since every time I've played with someone who said "this part is so easy" "you guys need to do this and we can win" "I've done this so many times I can beat it" or in some other way talks about how the game is easy or they know the best way, they crash and burn. It's more telling than saying GW is easy.

Now i'm not gonna say it's super hard, but I think people have come to learn the game & understand how to overcome it and then label it "easy".

PlasticBlue · Jun 26, 2008, 01:39 AM // 01:39

I also noticed that most people who claim the game is easy, 1. didn't finish any elite missions/dungeons/areas or HM missions or 2. only did some basic pvp with a lame build/never got past ab or other "it doesn't REALLY matter what you are running" pvp (of course it does matter in ab, but you won't necessarily /fail if there is one newb/noob running around).
There is more to this game then button bashing and just flinging some lame build in your bar... Some people just don't see that far, or don't want to see it at all. I guess it kind of depends how dedicated you are to gw.

Let me add some RL skills to the list though.
Managing (parties, guilds,...)
Leading (guilds, alliances,...)
Learning (languages, how to behave around other people,...)
Respect (for other players, cultures, nationalities,...)

And somehow we are forgetting the most important thing. Games are made for our entertainment! Having fun is a skill as well

Shadey · Jun 26, 2008, 04:18 AM // 04:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aldric

You know it's hard for a PvE'r like myself to agree with PvPers when so many of them talk utter pish like this.

Well FYI ive never done PvP in 3 years of playing GW

Ive used Ursan and I know everything there is to know about PvE..So i still stand by what I said.

Aldric · Jun 26, 2008, 12:31 PM // 12:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadey

Well FYI ive never done PvP in 3 years of playing GW

Ive used Ursan and I know everything there is to know about PvE..So i still stand by what I said.

Apologies to the pvper's for demeaning them then . You however still talk pish though.